In this episode of Slow Agency, we asked Dr. Laura Greenfield to help us understand radicalism in the writing center space and how the writing center can be a space for resisting power, privilege, and standard language ideology. We hope you’ll enjoy our conversation!

For more podcast content, follow Slow Agency on Anchor, Apple Podcast, Spotify, and Google Podcasts. Click here to jump to the resources mentioned in this episode.

Resources

Greenfield, L. (2011). Writing centers and the new racism: A call for sustainable dialogue and change. Utah State University Press.

Greenfield, L. (2019). Radical writing center praxis: A paradigm for ethical political engagement. University Press of Colorado.

Kimmerer, R. W. (2013). Braiding sweetgrass: Indigenous wisdom, scientific knowledge, and the teachings of plants. Milkweed Editions.

Young, V. A., Barrett, E., Rivera, Y. Y., Lovejoy, K. B. (2014). Other people’s English: Code-meshing, code-switching, and African American literacy. ‎Teachers College Press.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Esther Namubiru: Welcome to Slow Agency. This podcast offers a space for Writing Center and Writing Studies people to slow down, think, dialogue, and reflect on issues affecting their professional lives. I’m Esther Namubiru. 

[00:00:13] Weijia Li: I’m Weijia Li. 

[00:00:14] Anna Habib: And I’m Anna Habib. We are honored to steward this podcast. To learn more about Slow Agency, visit Connecting Writing Centers Across Borders, a blog of WLN, a journal of Writing Center Scholarship.

[00:00:28] Esther Namubiru: In this episode, our guest was Dr. Laura Greenfield. Dr. Greenfield researches the intersection of language, power, race, and education. She’s the author of the book, Radical Writing Center Praxis, and she is the co editor with Karen Rowan of The New Racism: A Call for Sustainable Dialogue and Change. We invited Laura to discuss how the writing center could be a space for resisting power, privilege, and standard language ideology. And we also talked about her book, Radical Writing Center Praxis. We hope you enjoy our conversation. 

[00:01:04] So, Laura, before we jump in, we like to start our conversations by hearing about how guests developed their interests, the ones that they pursue today, especially interests around writing and language and literacy.

[00:01:18] And so I was wondering if you could share a little bit more about your literacy background and what early childhood and young adult experiences got you interested in the things you pursue today, especially around writing. 

[00:01:33] Laura Greenfield: Sure. I grew up in a family of writers. My grandparents loved to write. My parents loved to write. I have an aunt, um, who’s an English professor. Other aunts who are English teachers and speech teachers. So I grew up surrounded by language. Um, and before I was even able to pick up a pen myself, my mom would have me dictate stories to her. When I was really little, she would, um, have me cut out pictures in magazines and she’d say, tell me a story about this picture.

[00:02:07] And then she would transcribe word for word what I said, and she kept it in a little book. And I still have that book to this day of little stories, um, with pictures. Um, and so really from then on, I always considered myself a writer. It was an identity I had from very little. And so it was something I, um, loved to do in all forms.

[00:02:30] I journaled, um, I wrote poetry. I loved all my English classes when I was little in school growing up. And I, I knew, didn’t know what I was going to do with my life, but I knew that writing would somehow, um, be a part of that. And as I got older and was, you know, looking for colleges and then deciding a major and through that process, English is sort of where I continued to gravitate.

[00:02:58] What’s interesting is that I was always a terrified speaker. I did not want to talk to anyone. I did not like to speak in class unless I was called on and my heart would be racing. I almost didn’t want to apply to graduate school because the thought of having to orally defend a dissertation at the end of it was-

[00:03:17] just awful, but thankfully I pursued it anyways. Um, and along the way, um, found my voice and developed more courage. And then years later found myself directing speaking programs. Um, so I’ve sort of come to, to explore, uh, literacy, education through a lot of different lenses, for both a lot of experience and confidence and also through the process of really having to struggle and grow to, um, to be where I am.

[00:03:44] Anna Habib: We always ask our guests this question. So we’re curious about your, um, experience. What is your writing process? How do you, um, how do you approach a project like your dissertation project or this book, the, the Radical Writing Center Praxis? What is your writing process? 

[00:04:02] Laura Greenfield: That’s a great question, and I don’t know that I have one process, that each project requires a different approach, and depending on where I am in my life and new experiences and strategies I’ve encountered, I’m constantly experimenting.

[00:04:22] However, one common theme that I am coming to terms with is that I tend to mull over an idea for a very long time, and so I’m writing, but just not putting words on paper, um, in the sense that as I’m in the shower, I’m thinking, as I’m driving, I’m thinking, as I’m falling asleep or not falling asleep, I’m thinking, um, and some projects, um, it goes on this way for several years.

[00:04:54] Until I have enough clarity in my mind, okay, I think I know what it is I want to say and what form I want this to take. And then I sit down and I do a marathon sprint. Um, and so I, I was thinking about Radical Writing Center Praxis for maybe five years, but I wrote it or I drafted it in two months. I, I put all of my energy into it and it’s just go, go, go and every waking moment it’s, it’s putting it down because at that point I’ve put it all in my head now and now I go and write.

[00:05:34] So I, I really admire and envy the writers who have a practice where every morning they spend half an hour and they write little bits. I can’t, I can’t do that. It just doesn’t work for my, my energy and my rhythms and the way my creative process works. I, I don’t advise my students to wait until the last minute and then write that way.

[00:05:56] It’s not that, you know, I write it that fast and then I’m done with it. That, that’s just sort of getting it all out and then the revision process. You know, it takes another year or two, you know, fine tune it and then get feedback and then make revisions based off of that. 

[00:06:10] Weijia Li: I’m curious, how many hours did you spend on writing in those two months?

[00:06:15] Laura Greenfield: Um, well, let’s see, I believe I started it over a winter break. And so I was doing full days of, um, a lot of coffee shop writing. So I would first thing in the morning, I’d have my laptop and I’d sit at the coffee shop and then I’d be there all day until it was getting dark and closing, you know, so, you know, eight plus hours and then I’d come home and I’d be, you know, all jazzed up cause I’ve got all the ideas still in my head and I wanted to get going and

[00:06:45] Wake up the next morning and head back to the coffee shop. So I. It’s funny now. I’ve got all this creative energy to write more and no time to do it. The first one the Writing Centers and the New Racism with Karen Rowan That, that, that process took a lot longer, um, because there were many contributors, um, to that volume.

[00:07:10] So it was a longer process and I had a baby mid process of doing that, which I’m sure thinking back has slowed things down on my end a bit. But that’s, that’s life. That’s, that’s reality. And I think one of the things that I hope through my work is that my students and colleagues and friends and just the people that I, um.

[00:07:33] You know, have the good fortune to get to, um, talk to, um, understand that, you know, we’re, we’re not robots and so much of academia and the workforce really is trying to condition us to adjust to capitalism. Um, and to just sort of think that we just sort of show up and do our work and go home and it doesn’t take a toll on our bodies and our emotions and our families and so forth.

[00:07:59] And so I think it’s really important to be real about what what I have to navigate, what my real life is and how, um, you know, that the obstacles and the challenges that come up and hopefully that can give other people permission to be, you know, not feel so bad about things that are really hard, such as finding time and energy to write.

[00:08:21] Esther Namubiru: I wanted us to talk a little bit more about this book, uh, Radical Writing Center Practice. Um, what did you notice about our current writing center models that made you think, you know what I need to propose? a different framework, the radical writing center framework. 

[00:08:38] Laura Greenfield: Sure. I think the idea for the book came from a number of different places that all coalesced at once.

[00:08:47] Um, on one hand for myself, it was a place to really clarify and make explicit. What do I value and what do I care about? And how am I as an educator growing and wanting to name my intentions? And at the same time, A lot of my ideas came through exchanges at writing center conferences. I love writing center conferences.

[00:09:15] I go to as many as possible. Um, I get a big goofy smile on my face when I’m talking about writing center conferences. There’s just something about writing center people, um, that, that makes me happy and I love these gatherings. Um, and so I’ve gone to a lot of gatherings and it’s been a really helpful way to.

[00:09:36] Um, get a sense of really the, the state of the field, even more so than the way, um, um, our publications depict the field, because our publications, It takes a long time from start to finish, so, um, a lot of the things that are published, people were working on a couple years ago, um, and so forth, and not everyone has access to the publications, and not everyone’s voices are represented in the publications, and so conferences has been one way that I’ve tried to really get a sense of what, what is happening in the day to day, um, work at writing centers.

[00:10:10] And what I started to see over a number of years, Uh, was a couple things that there was, um, on one hand in really exciting ways, um, a growing interest in addressing, um, aspects of identity and justice, um, explicitly in ways that were almost completely absent when I entered the field Two decades ago. Um, and so on one hand of seeing this growing momentum, which is really exciting, and they’re starting to be conferences with themes all around gender or all around, you know, race.

[00:10:48] Um, and so excited that, okay, great, there’s a place where we can finally start having these conversations. Um, and I found a lot of people, um, interested and excited, um, um, about doing so. Um, and uh, uh, good deal of scholars who had really exciting and challenging things to say that I found myself really learning from and admiring and wanting to emulate and be in conversation with.

[00:11:16] And at the same time, um, also encountering a lot of writing center folks who, um, had, you know, been introduced to the field in similar ways that I had in sort of a politically neutral sort of, um, approach where we were just taught, you know, writing centers are about the writer, not the writing, that we had all the same little mantras.

[00:11:39] We had this do’s and don’ts, it’s HOCs before LOCs. And all these little rules and ways that, you know, had made me fall in love with writing centers to begin with. Um, that, that, that sort of approach was my origins. Um, but, made it really hard to talk about a lot of these other issues, because there was just this, this disconnect happening between discussion about social justice, and politics, and identity, and systems, and asking questions to draw ideas out of a writer, that it was, it was hard for folks who did not have that political orientation to figure out sort of what is the connection here.

[00:12:22] And so what I observed is that, um, and I’m not the only one to observe this, that, um, that discussions about justice, um, tended to be special interest topics. So if you wanted to talk about these things, you could start to maybe find a workshop or a special interest group or a discussion at a conference and you’d find sort of the other people who are interested in it.

[00:12:43] Um, but then those conversations would stay in these closed spaces and it wasn’t necessarily impacting the broader work of the field. Um, so I, you know, we’ll go to a discussion and there’d be, um, really exciting ideas and people talking about really innovative approaches to resisting, um, racism, for example, on their campus, and then I go to the very next session and it would be a discussion that completely, um, ignores everything that had just happened.

[00:13:14] Um, and it, it was really frustrating. Um, and so it took a lot of, you know, over years of thinking and conversations and theorizing, so on, to sort of put my finger on sort of why do I see this happening? Um, and it, what it came down to and still comes down to for me, um, is, um, a difference in our political leanings and how we observe the world politically and what, what we interpret the purpose of our work to be.

[00:13:44] Um, and, and so for me, How I have always viewed the world is through, um, um, through the lens of activism. That I have always, no matter what space I’m in, if there’s something that’s wrong, I see it as my job to work on making it right. Um, and what that, you know, has meant over the years, that analysis has become more sophisticated.

[00:14:07] Um, but my approach to my teaching and to Writing Center work has been no different. I’ve always asked myself, how do we make the world better through this work? Um, and um, certainly people want to support writers, um, don’t mean to suggest that people come in with bad intentions, everybody, you know, is coming in wanting to, um, have a positive impact.

[00:14:30] Um, but our political analysis of what that means and how we go about doing that, um, in the field is really varied, um, and because of the way that writing centers, um, as spaces and as a field have evolved, um, we have. In many ways, um, in order to, um, survive in our institutions have adopted these politically neutral approaches that have become, um, idealized in our work.

[00:15:01] That we sort of praise one another if we are being neutral and not stepping on the toes of the writer and not getting involved and not interjecting our views, um, and to, to the point where, um, tutors feel guilt at even, you know, having a point of view in a conversation, um, and if, if, um, we as a field are telling tutors that you really cannot be a whole person in a session and your point of view is, in fact, You know, an overstep, then how on earth are we going to dismantle, you know, intricate systems of oppression if we can’t even say like, Hey, you know what, I think this is a problem.

[00:15:44] Um, and so I, I found that in, in having conversations and trying to persuade others, um, that, um, That in order to be persuasive, we really have to sort of get back to the root and say, why is it that you think you’re here? And what are you trying to do? Okay. You’re actually here for a different reason than I’m here.

[00:16:07] And we have to sort of start from the beginning. Um, and so when I wrote this book, it was really an invitation to the field to say, let’s not like have arguments about what should a session look like. And should a tutor say this or that? Like we need to start from square one and say, what are we trying to do as a field?

[00:16:23] Like, are we trying to just facilitate whatever happens to be happening at our schools? Are we just here to make people better at writing the status quo, or are we actually trying to transform the world, um, and, and, um, eliminate violence and create peace actively? Um, that’s what I’m trying to do. So, I wrote this book in hopes that there are others who also have these same aims, but haven’t.

[00:16:51] figured out how to navigate those conversations in our field. Um, and hopefully we can continue to have conversations about what are we doing here? What are we trying to do? 

[00:17:02] Weijia Li: You’re listening to the podcast of the blog, Connecting Writing Centers Across Borders. To learn more about our guests, visit wlnjournal.org forward slash blog. And now back to the conversation.

[00:17:23] So Laura, one of the dynamics that a radical writing center has to address in your book is its power. Um, And, um, in the book you put forward that power is not inherently bad, and in fact when power is properly theorized and/or exercised in ethically engaged praxis or values, it’s emancipatory. So what does ethically engaged praxis look like in the Radical Writing Center?

[00:17:53] Laura Greenfield: That’s a great question. I continue to be a student of theories of power. I think it’s a fascinating and really challenging, um, area of inquiry. But where, where I find myself most persuaded is in the conceptions of power that are, um, explored by folks, um, who do critical pedagogy. Um, and, and these folks are looking at power as neither bad nor good intrinsically, but it’s something that we exercise and it depends on to what ends we exercise this power that we can make value judgments about it.

[00:18:42] And one of the reasons that that interpretation of power is so appealing to me is that it means that all of us have the potential to wield power in some way. Oftentimes, we are taught that power is something that only people in formal positions hold. Um, so you have to be a president or a, in a classroom space, a teacher, um, a boss of some sort.

[00:19:08] And while certainly those positions do enable a certain kind of wielding of power, um, and a really, um, important, um, and, um, Potentially, you know, positive or devastating, um, wielding of power. All of us, regardless of our positions, still have the power to influence others, um, and to impact our environment.

[00:19:30] It doesn’t mean we have the same kind of power or can exercise our power in the same ways. Um, some ways are much more pronounced, um, and obvious and far reaching. And some are much more subtle and covert, but nevertheless important. And when we are embarking on a process of social change, recognizing that all of us have agency in some form is a critical foundation of that work, um, because it’s the reason for hope.

[00:20:00] Um, if we don’t have hope, then why bother? In a radical writing center, um, I, I actually don’t believe that there is such a place, um, that it really is a praxis. That there is Radical Writing Center praxis, it’s something we do and reflect on, and do and reflect on, and it’s an ongoing process. Um, and so I, I hesitate to say, I run a Radical Writing Center, and that person doesn’t run a Radical Writing Center.

[00:20:30] It’s not, it’s not that simple. It’s in any one moment. Am I actively and intentionally trying to resist the injustice I see and am I reflecting on it? Why am I being purposeful about it? And is somebody resisting me and what I have done wrong, you know, unknowingly in, in my own space? Um, and so in many ways, moments of radicalism in programs that I have directed haven’t been because I’m some kind of radical leader.

[00:20:58] It’s because the students have been radical in their approach to navigating the programs and pushing back against assumptions built into the spaces. So power in the radical writing center, I think is something that everybody wields, that everybody is consciously, um, employing, um, and is consciously reflecting on.

[00:21:22] So it’s, it’s dynamic, um, and moving, but it’s going to look different in every space and with every person and in every community, because our identities and our contexts are also so different. 

[00:21:35] Anna Habib: I wanted to actually kind of raise that, um, a little bit just to extend what you said, this idea of privilege and, and as you were talking, I was thinking about this article that I was recently reading, it’s, um, the responsibilities of privilege and interview with Noam Chomsky on the role of the public intellectual.

[00:21:56] And so I was just thinking about the responsibility of privilege. And I don’t want to make any assumptions, but I do, I mean, I do want to point out, you know, the fact that there are so many people who want to be radical, but maybe are not in the same position as, as you, as me, as well, as many of us, could you speak to that a little bit?

[00:22:17] Laura Greenfield: I think that’s really an important observation and question. And I, I respond to that in, in two, uh, two ways. One is I, you know, as a, as an individual and as a scholar, um, identify as a white woman. Um, I, uh, come from a middle to upper class family. I’ve had access to a lot of resources. Um, and so what I have been able to do, um, both to access and then to challenge in my career is not the same as everyone else.

[00:22:56] And as much as I have, um, try to learn about a variety of experiences, um, and how systems of oppression operate, I can’t help but read the world through my own lens. Um, and so my hope is that, um, folks who pick up my book will identify the, my shortcomings and we’ll look at where have I, where have I, um, missed something or where have I framed something in a way that is, um, coming from a privileged perspective that I did not recognize.

[00:23:32] And so I hope that people will take this up and say, this book is worthy of, you know, taking seriously, but here’s some problems with it and that, you know, more people will, will push it forward in, in, in more helpful ways. Um, so on one hand, like, yeah, that’s the reality. I, I am who I am, and that’s, um, the perspective I can’t help but write from.

[00:23:56] Um, at the same time, I think it’s really important that people recognize that radicalism is not something that you do once you’re in a space that welcomes it. And in fact, that’s the opposite of what radicalism is. Radicalism is pushing back against the unwelcome. That radicalism is resisting injustice.

[00:24:19] It’s speaking back to power, um, in whatever context you find yourself in. It might look different depending on the context. So I might be able to say certain things or put my body in certain spaces in ways that carry less risk for me than somebody else. Um, but that doesn’t mean that my power is more important or can make more change than someone else’s power.

[00:24:47] Um, and in some ways, the spaces where radicalism is, um, not openly welcomed, at least in the discourse of a space, is the place where it’s needed most. And the people who are there who have the most to lose have the most power because, Their act of speaking, speaking truth is really dangerous to the status quo there.

[00:25:14] And so some, uh, actions that might be more subtle and more covert might in fact be even more meaningful and impactful in a space where it’s doesn’t appear welcomed. Um, and so, so I really encourage people to think about not like, Oh, I can’t do radicalism because, um, I’m, I’m not in a radical space. Great.

[00:25:40] Then that’s the act of pushing back against it is, is radical in nature. And sometimes that’s as subtle as rejecting the lies that you’re told about your value in a space. Um, and so if, you know, There are certain types of knowledge or certain ways of communicating or certain experiences that the academy says because these, and I don’t say it outright, but because these are not, you know, white, cis, male, you know,

[00:26:13] US. born, et cetera, et cetera, um, ideas, then it’s not valuable. Um, those kinds of assumptions, um,

[00:26:24] Those sorts of assumptions suggest that there’s ways of being and doing education that are better than others, and simply by saying, no, that’s not true, or if someone finds themselves, um, with an idea or with an experience or with a way of expressing, um, knowledge that isn’t welcomed, even the act of saying, my experience matters and has value and is important, um, and I have a right to that.

[00:26:54] Even if nobody else agrees or believes me or, or values that, um, that act of, um, claiming one’s own voice is really, is really powerful. And what I have observed is when people claim their own voice and are not apologetic for who they are, it inspires others around them who are wrestling with the same, um, doubts and the same, um, messages.

[00:27:21] Um, to also, um, cultivate that, um, stronger sense of self encourage, um, and ideally collectively we support one another until there’s a bigger and bigger, um, movement of folks who are resisting these systems. 

[00:27:37] Anna Habib: Yeah. I mean, and, and just to say people who feel, well, maybe I am in a position of privilege and I, you know, haven’t experienced oppression or, you know, overt.

[00:27:49] You know, oppression or marginalization. So maybe I should be quiet and not really speak up. I mean, of course there is a place for listening and, and making space for marginalized voices, but then also a place to, to leverage that power, that place of privilege and speak up and join the collective voice.

[00:28:12] Um, and I think there’s so much hesitation or nervousness, at least I’ve encountered with people in the academy who maybe aren’t speaking from a place of, of, um, suffering or, or marginalization and not feeling like they should speak in these spaces, but I feel like they 

[00:28:31] absolutely should. We all should.

[00:28:34] Laura Greenfield: Absolutely. And I, I take the, the idea of working with, not for, um, that Paulo Freire talks about, um, in his work as, as really important. Um, that it’s not, Oh, because I have this privileged place, I’m going to speak for other people, but it’s how can I use this platform? So in a really, in a really subtle, um, practical way, um, um, for example, in a meeting.

[00:29:03] Um, where, you know, the, the white people are getting called on and the person of color is sitting there waiting and waiting and waiting and not getting called on, um, you know, I can raise my hand and get called on and say, thank you very much. So, and so had something to say, and actually, you know, hand the platform over.

[00:29:20] Um, and so, you know, that on a micro scale, you know, is the same thing that can be done on, on a macro scale, whether it’s funneling resources, whether it’s. You know, accessing spaces, um, whether it’s, as you said, I think the most important thing is, is to listen. Um, and if you have resources, then to. To provide and support the needs that people express needing, as opposed to sort of assuming what people need and jumping in, that would be a doing for supposed to. Oh well. 

[00:29:54] Esther Namubiru: Laura, I think that’s such an important distinction. Thank you so much for saying that. One thing you mention in the book is this idea of shared leadership and you ask writing center administrators to really carefully consider how they bring in their tutors and how they bring in other students into that leadership of that center.

[00:30:19] You have so many wonderful stories in your book where you, you show how that happened in those small subtle ways, as you call them, where students or tutors were essentially working with you to do something that was going to be Um, I remember one particular story you say where two students proposed an idea of having the writing center you were directing at the time collaborate with a local high school and they were quite nervous about that idea, but you reached out across the table, you shook their hand and you said, let’s do it.

[00:30:54] And they’ve since moved on. And the collaboration between that writing center and the high school continues. We don’t hear enough of those stories. Do you think that has to do with a lot of unique pressure or pressure points for the administrator? Where there’s certain institutional rules and policies and practices that maybe inhibit them from drawing in the student?

[00:31:18] And letting the students share the power with the administrator? 

[00:31:23] Laura Greenfield: Absolutely. Um, and as I mentioned in my book, in the, I’ve worked at a number of institutions in a number of different roles. Each one has been very different and very educational in terms of, um, what I’ve been able to do and what sort of the institutional culture has been and has welcomed.

[00:31:42] Um, and so, I have been at, you know, they’ve run the gamut from, from really supportive to really not. Um, and I have, I have been accused of giving students too much power. Um, in those words, like, called into the boss’s office, you’re giving students too much power. Um, and to me, you know, that doesn’t even make sense.

[00:32:06] I can’t give students power. They have power and this is how they’re using it. And I’ve created a certain space and a certain type of conversation and this is what’s, um, what’s come of it. Um, so it’s, it’s true that there’s a lot, um, um, a lot of different types of spaces that directors have to navigate.

[00:32:29] Um, and it’s often really, really a hard position to be in. Um, because we are on one hand trying to satisfy the institution that has a particular agenda and culture and norms that it wants to perpetuate. Um, we’re often trying to, um, advocate for ourselves and trying to prove our own validity and, um, in an academic culture that still doesn’t really understand what writing center people do.

[00:33:01] Um, and so many of our jobs are vulnerable. And then you have also what, what is the work that I’m trying to do and what am I here for and how are, am I supporting students in that? And so we are navigating dynamics coming at us from every direction. Um, and it’s really hard. And so on the one hand, we’re, um, supporting students in, um, in using their voices and helping to shape the work of the space can be politically dangerous work.

[00:33:31] It can also be really, really supportive work, um, for the community and for the director, um, themselves. So I know for me, my greatest source of strength in all of my jobs have been the students who have worked with my programs, um, that it’s their, their passion and their commitment and their ideas, um, and their courage that has given me the confidence to like go out and say what I’m going to say at the faculty meeting or, you know, propose this, whatever it may be on campus, because I know there’s this group of really, um, really pumped up 20 year olds who are ready to go to bat for me.

[00:34:10] Um, and that’s really reassuring. Um, and in some ways, students carry the most power at an institution, um, because simply, you know, in a business sense, it’s their dollars that keep the school going. Um, and, and the, the school has to satisfy them and their parents to, to some degree. Um, and so I, I have been able to do a lot because I have worked really hard to cultivate a community of students, um, and, um, supportive faculty and staff as well who, who believe in the work of the program.

[00:34:42] Um, and so that, um, that idea of shared leadership, uh, that, that you picked up on is really important, both in terms of sharing leadership with students, but also with other colleagues, um, um, across the institution who believe in what we do and share similar political aims. Um, it’s very hard to navigate alone.

[00:35:04] Um, it’s a lot easier to navigate as part of the community. 

[00:35:07] Weijia Li: You’re listening to the podcast of the blog, Connecting Writing Centers Across Borders. To learn more about our guests, visit wlnjournal.org forward slash blog. And now back to the conversation.

[00:35:27] So writing centers are increasingly paying attention to their ideologies about marginalized writers of non standard English. So how does the Radical Writing Center Praxis approach language ideologies like Standard English? 

[00:35:46] Laura Greenfield: My hope is that if the field were to embrace radicalism as its foundational politics, that it would take the question of ethics and language as a reason for being.

[00:36:03] So that the field would say, our reason for existing as a field is to facilitate conversations about the ethics of language standardization or language policies and, and so on, so rather than saying, here’s our position on the answer to that question that we say, yes, that is the question and that we’d interrogate it.

[00:36:28] And certainly I would say that it would say that language standardization, um, as it is currently practiced, is not what I would advocate certainly, um, because it’s exclusionary and because it both contributes to and perpetuates um, our existing, um, systems of inequity, but really interesting questions about what does a truly multilingual society look like and how do we get there and how do we create that and how do we navigate language difference, you know, in practical ways, but still, um, support plurality of voices, um, such that no one dominates the other.

[00:37:07] How we go about that still, you know, is yet to be created. And there’s a lot of really exciting and important work that has been emerging. I imagine many listeners are familiar with Vershawn Ashanti Young’s work on code meshing. Um, and so more conversations of this sort that what are the practices look like?

[00:37:27] How do we cultivate approaches to language in our students and one another, but also going beyond a liberal approach that says we’re going to worry about students using their own voices in the classroom, but not beyond to really thinking about how can we, especially as a field and as an institution, within an institution, um, how can writing centers really facilitate that social change so that everyone at our institutions and beyond are being invited to listen differently and to understand language differently and to approach their reading and their grading and so forth differently, um, so that it’s not about having to adjust students to injustice when they leave the school, but how do we actually.

[00:38:17] Um, change the very conditions that students would be entering in when they, when they leave school. And for me, that should be the project of writing centers that we all together as a collective try to, to figure out. 

[00:38:30] Esther Namubiru: So for the, uh, Radical Writing Center and the tutors in that center, how do international students’ needs fit within the radical writing center space and within the discourse of language ideology.

[00:38:44] Laura Greenfield: So one of my biggest critiques of the writing center field is the way that international students are put into one category and objectified and othered. And so the way I see that happening is a lot of writing center spritz talk about normal or standard way of doing things and then there’s this other way for international students. International students are not a monolith, um, people come from all over the world, so many different cultures, so many different experiences with language, so many different languages themselves, and then all of the different individual personalities – we’re all different people, and everybody comes as whole complex beings, just as somebody, um, who’s a so called domestic student or native speaker.

[00:39:34] And those are not always synonymous either. There are international students who are first language English speakers, and domestic students who are not first language English speakers. So I think the way that we talk about language difference and nationality is way too overgeneralized. And to everyone’s detriment, but particularly to international students.

[00:39:56] Um, I hear so many tutors have like anxiety about mentoring an international student. And it’s like, because we’ve like been set up in our scripts as some kind of unicorn that like requires something different. Um, and so I think it’s very important in any exchange. To understand who a person is and what their interests are and what their needs are and what their story is and, um, what they’re navigating and, and certainly to, um, tailor our approaches to the unique, um, questions and interests of each student that’s in front of us.

[00:40:28] So it’s not about pretending that everyone is the same because we’re not. Everybody has different, um, interests and needs, um, but I don’t think we should be profiling people based on international status. I think that just sets up a dynamic that, that isn’t useful. Oftentimes Um, and I don’t know that this was the intention of that question, um, but oftentimes when people ask me like, yeah, but what about international students who really just want to learn English?

[00:40:56] I, I first sort of questioned that assumption that, you know, who, who, who’s, who’s creating that story that that’s what the goal of every international student is, first of all. Um, but also even of students who, um, who are international students who are not first language English speakers who say my goal in coming to the writing center is to work on my English and I want to sound more like a native speaker and that’s the agenda.

[00:41:20] How is that any less of a political project than, uh, a first language English speaker walking through the door? There are so many reasons why the English language. It has colonized the world. There are so many reasons. Um, both economically, why people feel pressure to speak English. Academically, why we feel pressure to speak English?

[00:41:42] There are so many factors. Um, Racially and religiously and culturally, why, why certain languages are, uh, are privileged, um, or not, um, there’s so much to unpack, even in thinking of students that I’ve had who come to me and say, How do I fix my broken English? And I say, well, first of all, we have to interrogate who told you it was broken?

[00:42:05] Like, where did that language come from? Like, how is a language broken and how on earth could having, you know, the ability to communicate in more than one way, how is that anything but, you know, abundance and exit, like there’s nothing broken about that. And so as with any student that comes before a tutor in, in a center, the job as I see it, um, when taking a critical approach is finding out why, why is it that the motivation you’re presenting is your motivation?

[00:42:37] What is the pressure that you’re having to navigate? Why is it that you have been told? That this particular thing you’re trying to do is the only option or the best option and is that really true? And what, what is the cost of that to you and helping students figure out is, is that the choice that makes the most sense for them or not?

[00:42:58] And maybe it is, maybe it’s that, that makes sense and, but maybe it doesn’t. Um, and that’s a conversation that can happen and should happen, I believe, with everyone. 

[00:43:10] Esther Namubiru: As a writing tutor, I feel a sense of overwhelm a little bit. Um, I feel as though my, my training or my, my understanding of what I do or the way to enter a conversation, you know, using non directive or directive tutoring, et cetera, doesn’t seem to prepare me to have the kind of conversation you just suggested I need to.

[00:43:31] So, what small or subtle thing do I do or ask or say in that experience with an international or with a speaker of non standard English? How would I address that without necessarily, you know, taking myself down a path where honestly I’m still learning, I don’t know how to go there and I certainly don’t want to confuse the student before me too.

[00:43:57] Laura Greenfield: Thank you for that question. That is a question I hear a lot. I think it’s, it’s a fair question because I don’t think that the types of training that are common in the field prepare tutors for these questions. Um, and so it, it is daunting and overwhelming to a lot of people because it feels like we have been taught this body of methods and they’re hard enough on their own to figure out.

[00:44:26] And now all of a sudden we’re asked to, on top of that, take on all the problems of the world and have these deep conversations with people like it’s too much. And there was a conference, I think it was the NCPTW conference. Maybe a decade ago or so, um, Harvey Kail was one of the featured speakers and at the conference he posed the question, um, in response to this type of discussion, are we asking too much of our tutors or is this just too much?

[00:44:58] Um, and that, that question generated a lot of discussion because people had very different answers to that question. And my answer to that question is, with our current frameworks of the field in our current paradigm, yes, it’s too much because we have no support for how to do that. Should it be too much?

[00:45:16] No, that should be the work. I believe that that’s not an addition. It’s not an add on. It’s not a piece of the work. It is the work of writing centers. And so the way to do that, I think, is completely upending what it is we think we’re there to do. And in changing our understanding of why we’re there, it invites us then to rethink the methods that we’ve been taught.

[00:45:37] And so with the example, Esther, that you just shared about the non directive approach, I think we need to completely do away with that, that approach and really the language of that approach. The idea of directive or not directive gives tutors two options. It’s: insert myself and impose on the student and appropriate their voice.

[00:45:57] Or I step back and I don’t do anything and I don’t have any influence and you can’t find any record of the fact that I was even here in the student’s writing. Neither of those extremes is very helpful, but they leave tutors stuck because either one invokes guilt. Because it seems like you’re doing something wrong if you don’t say anything, or if you say something, it’s wrong.

[00:46:17] And it doesn’t give you any way of thinking about, what am I trying to do through my engagement? What exactly is my role? What is a useful contribution to this person’s process? If we completely get rid of that language and that framework, um, instead think of what’s an entirely different way to think about what it means to sit next to someone and have a conversation about their writing.

[00:46:37] Well, yeah, I want to have an impact. I want to have an influence, like, otherwise, why am I doing this? And why are they here? Like, I want the fact that they had a conversation with me to change their direction, or to push them forward, or to have them leave a little different than they, than they came here because the conversation with me was meaningful.

[00:46:55] And, That’s different for each student, how that unfolds and what that looks like and what they need and what I need is going to be different. But that means that I don’t have to hide who I am. I don’t have to pretend I believe something or don’t believe something. I’m honest about my views. If I see something that I think, if I don’t name that, that’s going to continue to put violence forth in the world, either in that student’s own psyche or through that student’s actions elsewhere.

[00:47:22] And I am not at too big of a risk to name it, then I’m here in order to name that. That’s my job. My job is to try to disrupt oppression. And so if my student comes in and they have consumed oppressive beliefs, then I’m gonna question them on it, and I’m gonna ask them about it, and I’m gonna invite them to discuss it.

[00:47:42] And how to do those kinds of conversations is hard, and that’s what we need more training for, um, in our preparation. And I don’t know how to do that right. It’s, it’s an ongoing, it’s a lifelong process. And there are conversations I’ve had that I’ve been really proud of. And there’s conversations that I’ve had that I look back on and say, Oh man, I really flubbed that, but it’s, it’s learning and it’s understanding that my job is to try to do that.

[00:48:10] And if it would get rid of some of the language and the, all the writer and not the writing and the this and that, that, and the don’t do this. And I always do that. If you just get rid of all of that pressure, which came. You know, that, there, it has its own agenda. That all comes from not being accused of plagiarism and, you know, not wanting to do this and wanting to be sure we’ve got the funding and not making this, you know, angry professor mad and trying to, you know, we set all that aside and say, that’s not what we’re here for.

[00:48:36] We’re here to make the world better. So what’s needed right now in this conversation to make the world better, sometimes it’s to not say anything. It’s to sit in and listen and be a witness. There’s so many, so many approaches, but if we understand that that’s the work, as opposed to that’s in addition to some other kind of work, then I think we can reorient how we reign.

[00:48:56] Or I, I don’t even like to say train because that suggests that it’s easy and fine, right? And now you’ve got your certificate, you know how to do it. How do we continue to educate one another? 

[00:49:07] Anna Habib: My friend was just saying, um, she was listening to the Asao Inoue interview and then, um, you’re sort of saying very similar things.

[00:49:17] She said, wow, that’s some radical plans for writing centers. Here’s the scenario. Student comes in. I need help with my grammar. Tutor says, first, let’s talk about why grammar is a tool of the oppressor. And then if you still want, we can talk about, um, comma splices. That is what we need to do in a way. We just need to figure out how to do that.

[00:49:37] Um, where we’re allowing, and, and, and, and maybe the student at that point would choose not to want to talk about comma splices, but to, to have that conversation to raise that awareness. And, but I think so many people are very uncomfortable. How do we do that? You know, it’s what Esther was asking. 

[00:49:53] Laura Greenfield: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:49:54] And I don’t know that that’s necessarily how the conversation needs to go because grammar itself is not the tool of the oppressor. Every language has grammar in order to have meaning. It’s about, you know, what kind of grammar, what kind of usage is privileged and what does a student even mean by grammar?

[00:50:11] It’s often, most of us aren’t trained linguists. You know, a student comes in and I need help with my grammar, that just means, can you help me with my writing? Um, and so it’s also what we ought to be careful with that. We’re not imposing, um, meaning and assumptions that students aren’t bringing, but I do think there are ways to talk about what sorts of oppressive beliefs are in fact influencing the student’s desires and talking about them.

[00:50:33] But you know, not everybody’s comfortable with being as direct as that, that story. And I think you can still have a conversation without. Leading with that question, but getting to that discussion, 

[00:50:44] Esther Namubiru: I had a friend, a tutor, a long time ago who we were talking about. We didn’t know we’re talking about this.

[00:50:52] We didn’t know we’re trying to be radical in any way. Um, but we were just talking about our sessions and she said, yeah, I was just reading a student and a student’s paper and they had a very interesting word choice there. They went with, and I can’t remember the exact example. And, um, my friend said, I, I hesitated to suggest a different word choice, one that was more colloquial and accepted because I thought that the way that they wrote it made sense in terms of how they were trying to communicate the meaning there.

[00:51:26] Um, and so I decided to let it go. So what do you think about that? And so we had an exchange about that and, um, what we’re talking about right now makes me think of that scenario where a tutor decides to just hold on what they would typically advise to do, just because they’ve read the, they’ve read the writer’s meaning and they’ve had that conversation.

[00:51:50] And so it’s, it, it seems like it’s on a case by case basis here. It’s not like across the board, let’s, let’s just go with this approach. It is, let’s understand what someone is saying in this moment and respond to them. As a reader and as someone who’s having a conversation with them, I’m trying to help them, um, you know, say what they want to say, but in a way that’s true to them.

[00:52:14] Laura Greenfield: Absolutely. I think that’s beautifully described that there, there isn’t, I don’t think one, um, one size fits all approach that it really depends, as you said, on the context and what the student’s goals are and what they have brought to the table and what support they’ve asked for, and then, um, certainly tailoring your approach to those needs, but also not, um.

[00:52:42] Silencing your own vision as a tutor, um, because a student may bring in an agenda that’s different from your agenda. And that doesn’t mean that then your agenda doesn’t matter, especially if their agenda oppresses you. Um, and so it is, it’s a navigation, but it’s a it’s a negotiation that depends on that, that context.

[00:53:02] And so sometimes, as you said, letting that go and not commenting on it is exactly the right approach and sometimes commenting on it is exactly the right approach. Um, so I, I do think, um, if tutors are supported in, in learning how to have, um, more, more support for cultivating their political analysis so that in those moments they can make their own decisions that feels right, as opposed to memorizing a checklist of do’s and don’ts.

[00:53:35] Students will be more confident engaging in those sessions. 

[00:53:39] Anna Habib: Thank you for writing this book. I personally feel like it’s extremely important and I am on board with you about activism in our field and we thank you for your work. 

[00:53:51] Laura Greenfield: Thank you so much. It’s something I care about deeply and so it’s really encouraging and exciting to know that people are reading it and are and are finding it valuable.

[00:54:01] Anna Habib: It does push people, um, out of their comfort zone and, um, into places of skepticism or, um, I, I don’t, I’m sure you have felt that I don’t, I, I’m not sure, but I assume you’ve had maybe some difficult conversations with people, um, as a result of that. You know, 

[00:54:21] Laura Greenfield: as I was writing it, I, in the back of my mind was thinking that I hoped it makes some people mad, um, because the intention was to shake things up and, and was to name some hard truths and speak back to things that people have taken for granted.

[00:54:42] Um, and if there wasn’t tremendous amount of resistance to this type of approach, this wouldn’t be, the book wouldn’t be needed in the first place that these ideas would already be widely in practice and they’re not. And so it. necessarily is going to be upsetting to some, some, right, right. So if there weren’t, weren’t some pushback, I would be concerned that I hadn’t really spoken my mind sufficiently.

[00:55:09] Um, but my hope is that it doesn’t make people run away, that it’s, you know, that it’s enough, you know, it’s unsettling enough that it sparks curiosity and sparks conversation that hopefully then continues because I certainly don’t have all the answers, um, but I did the conversation going for sure.

[00:55:29] Weijia Li: So as we end, uh, Laura, uh, we usually like to have our guests to share two things. So one is something that resonate has resonated with you recently. It could be a book or movie or TV show, and then maybe one elusive question or idea that you’ve been thinking about these days. 

[00:55:51] Laura Greenfield: That’s a really fun question.

[00:55:52] Trying to pick one thing that really resonates. I’m reading a book, um, Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer. 

[00:56:04] And 

[00:56:07] Anna Habib: Asao he said the same thing. It’s not exactly related, but it’s related to everything. 

[00:56:12] Laura Greenfield: Another kindred spirit. I’m only a few chapters in, but, um, I picked it up because one of the students that I’m advising.

[00:56:19] Is working from this text for their what’s equivalent to a senior honors thesis, um, and it’s, this has been a big influence of their work. And after talking to them about it all year, I got to pick this up and read it myself and just a couple chapters in. And it’s like, it’s life changing paradigm shifting.

[00:56:37] I can’t wait to finish it and see how it changes me. So. I’m quite excited about that. Um, and then the other question was, what’s a question that I’m still thinking about? I’m grappling with how do we, how do we as a society care for one another in the midst of a really oppressive capitalist regime? And how do we, how do we change, how do we change that?

[00:57:06] If anyone has any answers, please give me a call. You know, it’s something that I grapple with myself. It affects my life. In material ways, it’s something all my students are grappling with. My colleagues are grappling with, how do I care for my needs and those of others? When there’s so much, um, standing in our way right now.

[00:57:26] Esther Namubiru: That’s it for today’s episode. Thanks to our guests for the insightful discussion. 

[00:57:31] Weijia Li: We would also like to thank our listeners and blog subscribers for supporting us. And a special thanks to Emmanuel Mubiru, who provided our theme song. For notes and resources mentioned today, visit the Connecting Writing Centers Across Borders blog at wlnjournal.org forward slash blog.